"facw" (facw)
10/10/2018 at 13:46 • Filed to: Ethanol, E15, Donald Trump
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"facw" (facw)
10/10/2018 at 13:46 • Filed to: Ethanol, E15, Donald Trump | 2
| 45 |
Because it looks like we are getting more of it!
Trump said yesterday that he would direct the EPA to allow sales of E15 during the summer, when it is currently banned due to air quality concerns.
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Farm states are obviously quite happy that we will be encouraging more wasteful corn production.
Meanwhile environmentalists are upset that the decision will cause smog a decrease air quality and of course the fact that ethanol production (at least from corn) is not at all environmentally friendly. Oil refiners are upset because they wanted a broader package of ethanol reforms, but with the farmers getting what they wanted, they will no longer have incentives to compromise on things the refiners want.
Of course allowing the sale during the summer doesn’t force oil companies to sell E15, but the speculation seems to be that the shift will create the right incentives for a switch from E10 to E15 as the standard gas.
benjrblant
> facw
10/10/2018 at 14:05 |
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Or... maybe not piss off every other country that buys our agricultural products so they can not tax them thus buy more of our crops and put them to good use instead of us subsidizing the production of said crops and then trying to find places to put/use all the extra stuff?
just a thought. i dunno.
My 1997 doesn’t like e10, can’t imagine 5% more ethanol would be doing it any favors. It runs noticeably smoother on e0 and gets about 8% better mpgs on pure gasoline.
WilliamsSW
> facw
10/10/2018 at 14:09 |
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Yayyy!!!
- Said NO ONE other than corn farmers
ttyymmnn
> facw
10/10/2018 at 14:12 |
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STOP BITCHING. We’ve got an election to win.
Tekamul
> facw
10/10/2018 at 14:17 |
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I shall continue to hit up only the two local stations that offer non-ethanol 91, and use pure-gas.org whenever I wander far afield.
HoustonRunner
> facw
10/10/2018 at 14:18 |
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This one is interesting for me. For one, I am a consultant working in the oil industry, and have spent 95% of my professional life working in downstream (industry term for everything that happens once the refinery makes products). So in a very real way my livelihood is dependent gasoline demand.
But, all of my extended family is in Nebraska, and my dad and his brothers still own a decent amount of farm land (though they lease it, don’t farm it themselves). So corn, and by extension ethanol, prices impact my family directly as well.
In the end if Trump follows this with some reasonable increased regulation on who can transact in the market for renewable certificates (that are required to prove the volume of ethanol blended into sold gasoline), I think this could be a win for farmers and a net neutral for refiners.
Zaxbys
> benjrblant
10/10/2018 at 14:21 |
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I’m curious - a 1997 what?
I run E10 (since it’s almost impossible to find E0) in a 1981 Yamaha XJ650 , 1990 F150 (ok, that’ll run fine on anything), 1992 Honda ST1100, and 2000 Focus, and don’t notice much for problems. Gas mileage is maybe a bit low, but I’ve always attributed that to my “driving style”.
Of course growing up, pretty much everything was paid for by Big Corn (Pop’s payche cks come from Green Dealerships) , so I might be a bit biased...
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benjrblant
> Zaxbys
10/10/2018 at 14:24 |
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1997 Land Cruiser. The engine went into production in 1993 and was largely unchanged from 93 to 97 apart from a few emissions control items. It runs fine on e10, but the idle is noticeably smoother on e0, which is not prolific but its easy enough to find here.
punkgoose17
> facw
10/10/2018 at 14:25 |
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My car says to not use E15.
KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time
> facw
10/10/2018 at 14:26 |
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Meanwhile, if you want “Pure” ethanol free gas:
http://www.fuel-testers.com/find_ethanol_free_gasoline.html
Dunn o how often they’re updated.
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facw
> punkgoose17
10/10/2018 at 14:29 |
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Yep, my car says don’t use more than 10% as well. The ethanol industry pushes the line that E15 should be fine for anything 2001 and newer (2001 seems like an odd cutoff, but I’ve seen it pop up in several places). I think I’ll trust the manufacturers recommendation though, thanks.
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Zaxbys
> benjrblant
10/10/2018 at 14:30 |
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Fair enough. I looked a little more into it, and it seems like there are plenty of places with E0... in 91 octane , with a 20% price increase over E10 87 . No thank you bobcat. I don’t have any hipo engines that need such things.
MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s
> HoustonRunner
10/10/2018 at 14:32 |
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And a net negative for anyone who drives a gasoline powered car or lives in a city with smog problems
loki03xlh
> facw
10/10/2018 at 14:41 |
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What are owners of older card suppose
to do? I own a ‘90 and a ‘97, both of which are not supposed to use more than E-10. How fucked am I?
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HoustonRunner
> MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s
10/10/2018 at 14:50 |
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I’m not going to debate your smog point, but I drive gasoline powered cars and I would say “it depends” on the impact to drivers. Renewable certificates have been a major cost for refiners in the past 5 year, as the ability for speculative traders to play in that market has driven significantly higher prices. The original intent as I understand that requirement is a check and balance, but poor initial implementation of the system allowed groups that were not involved in ethanol production or selling gasoline to participate in the market. Subsequently end user gas prices have risen in some cases solely because refiners had to pay more for certificates. That isn’t good for drivers, and that money didn’t go to ethanol producers or farmers, it went to traders who simply speculated in a market that was not intended to exist. And refiners had to purchase those to cover for the sales of gasoline that did not have ethanol blended in.
All of that said, overall I’m with you. I don’t think changing the regulation to allow for E15 is a good idea. There are other ways to meet the goals.
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MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s
> HoustonRunner
10/10/2018 at 14:55 |
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I wasn’t even hitting on the costs as to why consumers would suffer, more so the fact that ethanol damages older vehicles and manufacturers won’t even give the okay for more than 10% ethanol on new cars.
I live in a wasteland of ethanol stations...I have to drive 20 miles out of my way to get to the nearest station with non-ethanol gas of any grade. Everytime I’m forced to fill my classic car with ethanol gas I wonder how long it’ll be before something breaks in the fuel system.
Maxima Speed
> facw
10/10/2018 at 14:56 |
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So wait I’m confused. I thought the whole point of Ethanol fuel was that is a renewable source of energy and less pollution-y. Now we’re saying its bad for the environment? Its just alcohol right? Also Doesn't ethanol hurt engine life, I was under the impression that it burns way hotter than gas. Please enlighten me.
BigBlock440
> loki03xlh
10/10/2018 at 15:00 |
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You’re not, yet, depending on where you live. I’ve only ever seen E15 at one chain of stations here in the east.
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BigBlock440
> facw
10/10/2018 at 15:02 |
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Meh, I’ve only ever seen E15 at one station chain, though they sell it all year round. More E15 and E85 means it’s not E10, but something less, so everybody benefits. Also, how does it cause more smog, and why would E10 to E85 not be affected?
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loki03xlh
> BigBlock440
10/10/2018 at 15:08 |
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Only problem is that I live in hellinois. We grow a lotta corn ‘round these parts. Maybe I should start planning for a couple LS swaps....
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facw
> Maxima Speed
10/10/2018 at 15:13 |
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Ethanol (from corn, which is the usual source) is very energy intensive to produce. This article is a bit dated (ethanol production has gotten more efficient) but it hits on the problems nicely: Ethanol fuel from corn faulted as ‘unsustainable subsidized food burning’ in analysis by Cornell scientist
Setting aside the basic energy costs of production, you are also using huge amounts of fertilizer and pesticides, both of which have negative impacts on the environment.
Beyond being expensive and wasteful to produce, it also sucks up high quality farm land that could be used for food production, or if not needed, allowed to create more green space.
It’s also not as good to burn as traditional gasoline. It has a lower energy density than gas, so you have to burn more of it to get the same efficiency. It also lowers the vapor pressure of the fuel, leading to more evaporation. And it produces more smog and ozone.
So yes ethanol sounds great at first, as a domestically produced renewable from plants, but it really isn’t a good choice as a fuel. The reason there is so much a push to use it is because doing so raises the price of corn, benefiting farmers in Midwestern swing states with disproportionately high representation in the Senate.
deekster_caddy
> facw
10/10/2018 at 15:15 |
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Greeat. Now we can pay more for our fuel and get even WORSE milage.
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deekster_caddy
> facw
10/10/2018 at 15:16 |
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Yeah, and for everybody with cars from before 2001? too bad!
OTOH maybe having E15 will give us a few more ‘E0' pumps... right now we have none (Massachusetts, E0 was banned).
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facw
> BigBlock440
10/10/2018 at 15:23 |
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I’m not sure why you think more E15 and E85 would mean decreasing ethanol in other blends. It’s not like there’s a fixed amount of ethanol. Those corn farmers celebrating this decision clearly feel it is going to lead to increased ethanol production.
In any event, the smog issue does effect E10 and E85 as well, but I guess regulators have been convinced that for those levels, the benefits outweighed the costs. As for what’s going on in general, burning ethanol can produce lots more ozone than gasoline (it does produce less NOx, but apparently not enough to offset the ozone). This is true for all grades.
BobintheMtns
> facw
10/10/2018 at 15:31 |
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“It also lowers the vapor pressure of the fuel, leading to more evaporation. And it produces more smog and ozone”
Lower RVP (vapor pressure) decreases evaporation. This is why refiners increase the RVP of fuels in the winter (easier to ignite when cold) and lower it in the summer months (to ward against vapor lock in hot climates).
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BigBlock440
> facw
10/10/2018 at 15:31 |
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It’s not like there’s a fi xed amount of ethanol.
But there is. Regulations state that x-thousand gallons of ethanol need to be blended in each year. Sure, they could blend in more if they wanted to, but they’re not able to blend in less. E10 is “up to 10% ethanol”. Up to 10%, meaning it’s likely less depending on how much they need to blend and gasoline sales in that particular year. E85 and E15 count towards that volume. In 2017, it was 19.28 billion gallons of ethanol and other biofuels, 2016 was 18.11 billion gallons, that’s dictated by the EPA.
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BobintheMtns
> MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s
10/10/2018 at 15:33 |
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Lol... I’ve got a 41 year old motorcycle... and I often use E85 in it... don’t believe the hype. Ethanol is a great fuel.
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facw
> BobintheMtns
10/10/2018 at 15:39 |
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Thanks. Here’s a better article: https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2018/08/21/understanding-the-debate-over-ethanol-and-smog/#4ebeb4e31e01
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BigBlock440
> deekster_caddy
10/10/2018 at 15:57 |
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Less per unit volume, currently $0.15/gallon difference between E10 and E15 at the only local station that offers it.
wafflesnfalafel
> facw
10/10/2018 at 15:58 |
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I thought this was kind of a buy off of the farmers to compensate for the sanctions hits with relatively low upfront costs? Seemed like a fairly smart action, (other than the increased food/fuel costs for the US public and potential air quality issues...)
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Zaxbys
> deekster_caddy
10/10/2018 at 16:00 |
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Well, according to pure-gas.org, my Midwest town has many stations with E0. They are all 91 octane and 20% more moneys per gallon than E10 87 octane. So you might end up with E15 or expensive 91 octane as your choices .
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facw
> wafflesnfalafel
10/10/2018 at 16:02 |
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Politically smart perhaps, but not smart policy.
Berang
> facw
10/10/2018 at 16:11 |
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I love how this news keeps being repeated as “now everybody has to buy E15" which is not at all what is actually happening. Anywhere. In any state.
Duck Duck Grey Duck FTMFW!
> facw
10/10/2018 at 16:11 |
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I am not against ethanol, I am against using corn and soy as the source. If I remember right, it takes a gallon of fossil fuel to get 1.5 of ethanol. Where are we at on cellulosic ethanol and using seaweed as the source? If I remember right it takes one gallon of fossil fuel to get 15 gallons of ethanol this way.
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Berang
> facw
10/10/2018 at 16:14 |
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This is all mostly debunked. Farmers grow corn anyway - there is almost always surplus corn. This just gives them another way to get rid of it.
And if you think production of ethanol is dirty and wasteful - holy shit - wait till you look at where gasoline comes from!
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facw
> Berang
10/10/2018 at 16:18 |
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Right, I think the question is what will happen in the future. This does make it easier for people to sell E15, but I don’t know if that alone will significantly shift consumption. It probably does also provide cover for C ongress to up the mandate from E10 to E15, but that is not what happened here.
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Berang
> MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s
10/10/2018 at 16:22 |
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The news here is being misrepresented. Stations will not be forced to sell E15. The news is that stations which do sell E15 can now sell it year round. If you do not live in an area that sells E15 now - you don’t have anything to worry about. E15 isn’t even available, at any time of the year, in most states.
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Berang
> BobintheMtns
10/10/2018 at 16:25 |
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Given how easy it is to adapt an older vehicle to run on alcohol, and the fact that people have been doing so basically since the invention of the automobile, I’ll never understand the fuss people make about it.
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BigBlock440
> Berang
10/10/2018 at 16:37 |
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I haven’t actually looked into the laws on E15, but I’m confused now, as the one station chain here that offers E15 has it available all year. Unless they’re just selling E10 with the “up to” disclaimer during the summer.
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BobintheMtns
> Berang
10/10/2018 at 17:27 |
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But dude!!! Some random on the internet said it would dissolve
the engine block!!!! Lol
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BobintheMtns
> facw
10/10/2018 at 17:28 |
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I’ve chatted with
Robert Rapier several times
— great guy... I’ll happily read anything by him
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Berang
> BigBlock440
10/10/2018 at 17:35 |
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It’s likely the case. As there is, so far as I know, no vehicle which requires a minimum of E15. It’s really only something for flex fuel vehicles which will burn other fuels if need be.
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wafflesnfalafel
> facw
10/10/2018 at 17:37 |
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agreed
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MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s
> Berang
10/10/2018 at 19:50 |
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I do see e15 around here and considering I can’t even get non-ethanol gas I wouldn’t be surprised to see a lot of stations here move to e15 if it’s cheaper and they can sell it year round
pip bip - choose Corrour
> facw
10/11/2018 at 04:42 |
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i use E10 here without issues
Gary Siegwarth for IA Governor
> facw
10/11/2018 at 06:28 |
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As as a natural resource biologist and I ndependent candidate for Iowa governor, the timing of this move is purely political in order to help Republican Governor Kim Reynolds. There are numerous other environmental impacts like water quality and soil erosion and loss of wildlife habitat that never get put on the economics spreadsheet. The billions in tax payer subsidies they get poured into corn and soybean production in Iowa has also been displacing Family Farms from the Iowa Landscape for decades. It’s a pure move of more ignorance, rather than having programs that could actually help Iowa farmers, our land, water or all the other species that never get a voice on that greedy political stage. Plus I thought farmers were against burdensome regulations? It seems ironic that the Waters of the United States rule was recently rescinded mainly because a few greedy Farm Lobby groups we're telling Farmers that the EPA was going to come regulate the rain puddle in their driveway, which was complete BS. Wondering how long we can travel in the spaceship of ignorance